Talk:Game Consoles

The table we used in table and frontend, can it not been used in the emulator page as well? Like this?

This page contains brief descriptions of various emulators for each console. If more information is needed for a particular emulator, an individual page will be created.

Company	Machine & Wikipedia link	Players	Control Type	Nr of Buttons	Cabfriedly Emulator(s)
3DO Company	3DO_Interactive_Multiplayer	?	?	?	?
Atari	Atari 2600	2	Digital	1	?
Atari	Atari 5200	?	Analog	?	MESS
Atari	Atari 7800	?	?	?	MESS
Atari	Atari Jaguar	?	?	?	?
Bally	Astrocade Bally Astrocade	?	?	?	MESS

We should only list machines and emulator, that can fit into a cabinet. Otherwice there are other page, that are lots better doing that (like Zophar). Spacefractal

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I like that, it give a nice overview of consoles and direct information. The emulator page should always point to a page in this wiki, in my opinion, there is most certainly cab related info for each emulator (perhaps have links to front-ends that support this emulator etc.) Another idea: have an alternating colour backdrop to keep brands (especially Atari, Nintendo and Sega) together like this:

Company	Machine & Wikipedia link	Players	Control Type	Nr of Buttons	Cabfriedly Emulator(s)
3DO Company	3DO_Interactive_Multiplayer	?	?	?	?
Atari	Atari 2600	2	Digital	1	?
Atari	Atari 5200	?	Analog	?	MESS
Atari	Atari 7800	?	?	?	MESS
Atari	Atari Jaguar	?	?	?	?
Bally	Bally Astrocade	?	?	?	MESS
Bandai	Bandai Atmark (Apple Pippin)	?	?	?	?

Felsir 07:22, 26 March 2006 (EST)

Yep, your right. We could even change the table to this one (Each company have one cell):

Company	Machine & Wikipedia link	Players	Control Type	Nr of Buttons	Cabfriedly Emulator(s)
3DO Company	3DO_Interactive_Multiplayer	?	?	?	?
Atari	Atari 2600 Atari 5200 Atari 7800 Atari Jaguar	? ? ? ?	Digital Analog ? ?	? ? ? ?	? MESS MESS ?
Bally	Bally Astrocade	?	?	?	MESS
Bandai	Bandai Atmark (Apple Pippin)	?	?	?	?

Wich table version do you like most?

You are right about the emulator page. on these page, we could link to the officiel page, wrappers, hacked versions of a emulator, so it can get this to work on a cab.

--Spacefractal 09:24, 26 March 2006 (EST)

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Hmm, not really sure, I do like the one-cell-per-brand option you suggested. I'm not sure if the table would still work if -for example- Atari 7800 has three of four emulators; would the lines still match? What about this mix?

Company	Machine & Wikipedia link	Players	Control Type	Nr of Buttons	Cabfriedly Emulator(s)
3DO Company	3DO_Interactive_Multiplayer	?	?	?	?
Atari	Atari 2600	2	Digital	1	?
	Atari 5200	?	Analog	?	MESS
	Atari 7800	?	?	?	MESS
	Atari Jaguar	?	?	?	?
Bally	Bally Astrocade	?	?	?	MESS
Bandai	Bandai Atmark (Apple Pippin)	?	?	?	?

Felsir 07:22, 26 March 2006 (EST)

It better. We should only show emulators, that CAN been run from command line, or use of a wrapper.

Some machines have a lots of emulatos, like NES (there are bunch of emulators to this machine). It may been stupid to list them there. But it could been showed in the indept page instead (like the frontend and jukebox section), and maybe some heklp how to intall and config to a arcadecab (like links to wrappes). It even better show emulators in the indepth page, so it can link emulators to linux and dos too (as long these are cabfreidly).

What do you think with this changed table (system buttons like start/select and so on should been shown here):

Company	Machine	Players	Control Type	Game Buttons	System Buttons
3DO Company	3DO_Interactive_Multiplayer (WikiPedia)	?	?	?	?
Atari	Atari 2600 (WikiPedia)	2	Digital	1	4 (2 swithes)
	Atari 5200 (WikiPedia)	?	Analog	?	?
	Atari 7800 (WikiPedia)	?	?	?	?
	Atari Jaguar (WikiPedia)	?	?	?	?
Bally	Bally Astrocade (WikiPedia)	?	?	?	?
Bandai	Bandai Atmark (Apple Pippin)	?	?	?	?

--Spacefractal 14:45, 26 March 2006 (EST)

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Hmm, as long as the machine's pages (like 3DO_Interactive_Multiplayer) don't become a wikipedia article about the console but has a strick structure on what topics are suitable and what topics are not, then I'm fine with it. Perhaps it is better to move the wikipedia link to that page so it is less tempting to put machine specs on the console's page? It still would like to include a column with cabfriendly emulators since that is what the page is about. Indeed the NES has (too) many emulators to list, but some are notable and useable for cabinets so the list can be short (say up to max 4 emulators per console).

Felsir 03:17, 27 March 2006 (EST)

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Yep, the wikipedia links could go into the machine page itself, and link to the wikipedia pages. So we drop wikipedia links on the brief.

The cabfreidly emulators was not a bad idea, so we use that instead, but it could link directly to page, because we could use the indepth page anyware to list them. No need to doing that twice. It better to doing the console based, and not emulator based (like MESS, that is multiple system emulator). It good to destript all NES emulators on the same page, so this is just a quick list to good cabfreidly emulator.

But I may not like the system buttons, because many just use shift buttons to access them anyway.

NB. Underscore is a bad to use (like that one on 3D0 Line).

Company	Machine	Players	Controls	Game Buttons	Cabfreidly Emulators
Atari	Atari 2600	2	Digital	1	stella

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I like the last version of the table. Two things:

• Each console will get a page, on this page we can list all emulators (in two secions: cab friendly and other).
• Each emulator will get a page, so MESS gets a page (also to enable us to list wrappers, ini files, things like that). So the last column will not link to an external page, but to the emulator page. On that page there is some general info including the link to the official website.

How does that sound? Felsir 07:39, 27 March 2006 (EST)

Fine with me, sound great :-).

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Im going to make the table tomorry (Im are going to bed soon). We do not need list other emuators, because there are allready most other sites, that cover that much better, like zophar, retrogames and soon. We should have cabfriedly emulators as the scope here.

But these external link could of course goes from the console/emulator page itself. The samme goes for arcade emulators, pc games and so on. Im was just taked on the console page first.

--Spacefractal 15:28, 27 March 2006 (EST)

I have now made the table, what do you think. There are of couse some spelling. THe other software page should use this list. It should not list coneols, that is allready on market (I do not known I should list Gameboy Advance, but there are allready very good emulators out there). Gamecube, PS2, Xbox is all nonemulators, but they could list on a another table, under the main one?

--Spacefractal 16:08, 28 March 2006 (EST)

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The table looks great, good work! Hmm, PS2, GBA, Cube etc. Perhaps it is a good idea to include those as well - it is a matter of time that these are getting emulated. Also some people do want to play GBA games on their cabinets. Oh, and otherwise people might look at the table and think "hey where is the PS2?". We can add a "not emulated yet" text/icon in that column. Felsir 16:41, 28 March 2006 (EST)

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Just thought of it: the "controls" column is rather redundant since the "buttons" column would also indicate wether there are analogue or digital controls present. Felsir 01:23, 30 March 2006 (EST)

Only classic consoles?

What is the definition of a "classic" console? Only list the consoles that are not currently in production? Where do we leave the consoles that are in production, as many use a XBox or PS2 as base for their cabinets. Since the page is not named "console emulation", what article should a reader look for to find information on these consoles? Felsir 02:51, 3 April 2006 (EDT)

I have thinks about all up to 64Bit consoles (including Atari Jaguar and Nintendo 64) in the classic list, so it dosen't have too many consoles in the same list). Most people use newer 128bit consoles as a base anyway (as you said), not emulation (even Sega Dreamcast have a good emulator for these games it run, but that emulator tab could still been used in the new table). Sega Dreamcast is a 128bit too, so it may been moved to the 128bit+ consoles (even it out of market, but it may been easier to find all 128bit consoles in the own list?)

I have not did a another table in the new page, but it coming soom (if you not made that first). Of course both articles should link toghether?

This was my idea!

--Spacefractal 07:25, 3 April 2006 (EDT)

There are not so many handheld consoles, so here I just marked newer consoles with bold (yep Advance is still on market), and let the 128+ consoles article talk for itself (Im have just renamed it from the frontpage).

What do you mean?

--Spacefractal 07:42, 3 April 2006 (EDT)

I have added the new list all 128bit game consoles (includning Revolutions and PS3). Did I miss some? Sega Dreamast are on the both list, because it really old now (but many users use it as a base, like other newer consoles), but it still a 128 bit console. But should I maybe remove from the classic list? If so I do not doing that my self.

--Spacefractal 17:31, 3 April 2006 (EDT)

I honestly don't like the distinction 128 bit consoles. It may mean something to you and me, but the average users doesn't care/know wether the console's porcessor is 128, 64 or whatever bitsize. They all share a common demoninator and that is: they're all consoles! So I still have the opinion that all consoles should be on one page. It doesn't matter if there is currently an emulator for them or not. The current consoles are cab related because thay can be used inside a console. We need to get a stance what this page is about: It started as the "console emulation" page. Now the page is called "classic consoles". Why is that? Because it is rather a list of consoles than a list of emulators. The reason why initially PS2 et al weren't listed is because they couldn't be emulated at the moment. Now the page is renamed to "classic consoles" and they can't be listed because they're not classic. If I rename the page to "List of consoles" they can be included. So why the urge to leave them out of this list? I say we get all consoles on this page, rename the 128 bit page to "Console based cabinets" and list those consoles there. Felsir 01:49, 4 April 2006 (EDT)

"List of consoles".... great idea :-), but what about handhelds (could it not to been "list of handhelds"? Im trying to move them here. Or doing that, what i did with handheld consoles (mark consoles on market bold)?

--Spacefractal 07:27, 4 April 2006 (EDT)

I have now changed and merged the list. All consoles, that is still en market is marked bold (these is typical used as a base on a cabinet).

Is this better?

NB. The move tab seen to work, if it dosne't contain a page. It lots easier, so we diddent need to delete pages.

--Spacefractal 07:49, 4 April 2006 (EDT)

Much better! Felsir 13:59, 4 April 2006 (EDT)

About Controllers

Some machines has so many speciel controllers, like PSX, so I are only liste the very first control, that came with the machine.

Otherice we sould list addons, lightgun, race controllers and other speciel controls. SOme consoles have so many speciel controls (like PSX), wich it is not comon to list them in the main table.

This is why I removed the pro controller for the jaguar again. The 6 button joypad was not a standard controller? This is the smame for Dual Shock controller for PSX. This controller was a addon and not standard.

Otherwice the list of extra controllers (like 6 buttons controllers for genesis/megadrive and of cource jaguar) should been explained in the indepth page instead.

The same goes for number of players. I have just count port, the console may have, and not any addons like multitabs (because not all have them, and many of them was very pricy). You could example have 2 multitabs for PSX (8 players), but only very few game titles use them. It was very sad about PS2, that only did have 2 ports and not 4.

These multitabs can of course explained in the indepth pages instead (you have a lots more space to explain them).

So the main table only count the standard controller, that came with the package, when it came on the market.

Ordering

How should consoles be ordered within a company? Most seem to be in chronological order (eg. Atari, Sony), But some seem to be in a different order (eg. Sega). Also, maybe adding a release date column would be useful? --Parag0n 07:36, 10 April 2006 (EDT)

Good idea (even it could been in the indepth page), because the user can see how old this console is actuelle is (instead of just typo them the bit (like 128bit) or so.

The Ordering is the alphebet order for each company and then console.

--Spacefractal 08:00, 10 April 2006 (EDT)

I think it may be better to still use alphabetical order for the company names, then go chronological for the consoles within the company --Parag0n 08:27, 10 April 2006 (EDT)

You are correct. Have changed and moved the consoles in the table (and added year).

--Spacefractal 12:26, 10 April 2006 (EDT)

Why were my additons to the buttons for the psx/gamecube/xbox removed? They are far more accurate.

Perhaps an explaination is in order:

Both sony and the xbox have fully analog buttons, but they aren't used for anything (that I am aware of) due to the fact that the buttons are very tiny and it's hard to make such subtle changes in the amount of pressure a gamer applies to them.

However both the xbox and gamecube (note I don't mention the ps2) have l and r triggers, which have a large enough range of motion to actually be used as analog inputs, and thus games actually used them as such (usually racers for the gas and brake).

I am not familiar enough with the ps2 to know exactly how it works, but I believe that the ps2's analog inputs are completely unused as the ps2 controller is merely a rip-off of the ps1 dual shock, which had all digital buttons.

What puzzles me on the ps2 entry for the number of analog controls is the 3X. Even if the buttons on the ps2 controller are analog I am almost certain the d-pad was digital, if that is what you are referring to.

The "t" notion used to shorten the description isn't clear enough imo. We are referring to analog triggers, not standard "l and r" buttons.

Now I can change the xbox entry back to "6a 2t" (which is correct, since, as I said all buttons on the xbox are analog) but I don't want to fight over it, so instead I'm talking about it here first.

Some clarification is in order on these issues.

--HowardCasto 04:07, 21 May 2006 (EDT)

Im have tried to use all about controls is for sticks only. Alll buttons (including triggges) is under buttons. I moved triggers under buttons to shorting the text.

If you diddent tried the PS2 Joystick very well, I can stand for you: Even PS2 look like digital buttons, they are ALL analog! Even the digital pad is actuelly a analog pad.

It very clear in games like Grand Theft Auto. If you didden't press it down, it only drove in half speed. You can even walk with the "digital" pad, if you just press it half down.

So none buttons are digital on PS2 joypad, only start & select was digital. So PS2 and PS1 are NOT the same technologi. So this is why it have 3xAnalog, and not 2xAnalog and 1xDigital. I own PS2 since it came to the market in EU.

What do you thing we should use about t? These was actuelly ment for the these analog l/r triggers, that actuelly feels analog and not digital?

Theese trigges are not a steer form, so they should moved into the buttons. But the destription may been bad? Maybe we should destription them better in the button to make it clear in the button of the page? Maybe we should use other than t? Maybe we should add a another cell about triggers and keypads or other speceil thing (like the tilt function on PS3 controller?)

It a lots bettter to have a indepth control destription like these in the indepth page, like Sega Dreamcast has.

--Spacefractal 04:38, 21 May 2006 (EDT)

Changed the article a bit. Is it better (tried to destripted the t better, so it now make clear what they stand for)? I have played Xbox games: These 4 buttons feel digtal and not analog. I have not see any analog reaction in these games I have tried (unlike PS2)? Maybe because all analog reaction used the triggers?

--Spacefractal 05:41, 21 May 2006 (EDT)

Well there are 6 buttons (you are forgetting black and white, which are often used) but yes they are indeed analog. It's just the xbox controller was over-designed and as you said, the triggers were such great analog controls that nobody ever bothered to use the buttons for analog. I didn't know about the analog inputs until I interfaced one of my xbox controllers to my pc and the drivers I was using displayed the button pressure as I pressed down in the test mode.

I think the real question here is are we trying to accurately display the input type on the main page, or display the practical input type as it pertains to interfaceing with arcade controls (usually a bad idea imho, but still)? Because in my mind the xbox controller is really 6 digital with two analog triggers as far as anyone in this hobby needs to know, but if we are going to go that route then the analog buttons on the ps2 have to be taken off too, as it is mis-leading. Most if not all ps2 games use the analog buttons as digital, so to make a person think they are analog all the time might confuse them into thinking they can't play a few select games on their panel when they can.

Also the 3x analog entry for the ps2 is really annoying me. Granted I don't know the exact specs but even if the dpad was analog a game designer would have to be insaine to use the directional pad as an analog control. There are two other sticks on the thing. This particular control on the ps2 pad falls into the same category as the analog buttons on the xbox pad, analog but never used as such.

--HowardCasto 16:24, 21 May 2006 (EDT)

I have played with this pad a lots of years (I even use it for my pc with a adapter). I actuelle see many games, actuelly use these buttons. It depend of the genre of the games.

I can stand what you said about PS2 controller. This is very speciel. On a cab, a normal digital joystick would work instead of the pad. The "digital" pad is very fellsome and you actuelly make sure to press it all down, before it registred as full.

Howover the destription may been bad? They feels like digital, but technical analog (analog/digital hybrid). PS2 games is actuelly use them. Maybe a another word?

2xAnalog Hybrid⁵) better? The five goes to a better destription on the bottom.

The most problem, how do we destript the tilt function on the PS3 controller, and the unique Nintendo Wii controller (Motion maybe)?

--Spacefractal 17:06, 21 May 2006 (EDT)

Got a idea how to destript these hybrids. Changed the page. What now?

--Spacefractal 17:58, 21 May 2006 (EDT)

I think the layout is pretty good now. We need to start filling it. Making sure that every emulated console has at least one emulator listed would be a start.

I know it is a lot of work, but I really think that each console emulator needs to have it's own page like the arcade emus. Consoles are the most cumbersome to get working on a mame cab (hopefully not the goal of our readers, but still) and thus they require more setup. I think the best way to do it is to make a blank template and copy it into each emu entry. This way when a fan of an emu runs across an empty page, all they have to do is fill in data, rather than worry about the format. I'll swipe the text off the daphne page and copy it into a few for discussion (as some console-specific entries might be needed).

--HowardCasto 02:26, 22 May 2006 (EDT)